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Friday, June 13, 2008

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I've been reading your blog for a while now and now I'm delurking! I think our parents either read the same parenting book or are long lost best friends. They had a very similiar parenting style (no curfews, letting me make my own choices...but not wanting to disappoint them, etc.) and it was like I was reading about my own parents on your blog. Besides that, I do have to say I have very much enjoyed your blog! I hope you had a great weekend! Jessica

I was blessed to have a similar relationship with my parents growing up. It was definitely a contrast to many of my friends' experience, which is why they rebelled or acted out and I never felt the need to do that. Thanks for giving us something to think about. Great post.

What a great post! Beautifully fitted for Father's Day :)

I especially like two of your points--number one being the difference between what and why. Kids know the difference between a good why and a bad one. They just do. Studies show that children who have a parent who died young fare much better than children who had a parent walk out. They both come from single parent households but they understand the why very clearly and it makes a difference.

A parent who times out to punish (to use the Prince of the West's helpful distinction) is going to get a much different outcome than a parent who uses time out to firmly show consequences for bad behavior.

Number 2 of Arwen's Good Points of the Day is about family size. When people become very enamored of parenting philosophies and strongly defined parenting styles having more than two or three kids can seem absolutely daunting (particularly to the parent who is staying home) because their energy is going in the wrong direction. I have to parent THIS way because its the "right" way--even if that "way" is obviously draining and apparently ineffective.

If their energy goes in a good, orderly direction, the cost would appear nothing to the reward.

That's not to say even good, orderly, loving parenting is not abso-freakin'-lutely exhausting. It just comes with a higher reward than a mere: "I'm parenting correctly"--it comes with love and learning and being torn down and built back up again. For both parent and child.

I absolutely agree that it's all about the relationship you have with your kids, and that all the decisions we make as parents need to take the health of that relationship into account. I think too few people get that, and too many think that having a loving, trusting relationship with your child in which you show him or her respect while you are providing guidance is "being a friend instead of a parent." Which is hogwash. I hope to heaven my child considers me a close friend when he is an adult, in the sense that he thinks of me as someone who he can talk to freely, come to with problems, and from and to whom he can get and give advice. My parenting bible is Alfie Kohn's Unconditional Parenting -- I highly recommend it to anyone who's interested in learning more about how to parent in such a way as to further (and not undermine) the long-term goals we all have for our kids.

"A parent who times out to punish (to use the Prince of the West's helpful distinction) is going to get a much different outcome than a parent who uses time out to firmly show consequences for bad behavior."

I didn't get much sleep last night so could you elaborate on this? I don't understand the difference.

Arwen, beautiful post. However, I think that so many generations of American parents have been pushing their children away to foster independence at an early age that parenting as you describe would not come as naturally as it should.

Thanks for these posts and those commentors who chimed in so helpfully. This has helped me gel several ideas in my head about discipline, and I also greatly appreciated the thought from Ms. Shaffer on the last post about 'time-ins'. As the parent to an 18 month old, all of this is just coming to the forefront, and having this kind of discussion is exactly what my brain needs to figure it all out.

Like the others said, your dad's comment about punish vs. consequence is very helpful. http://hedra.typepad.com/hands_full_of_rocks/
This lady's post of June 15 also has some very good ideas about backwards vs. forwards thinking in discipline, and why would you use a discipline tactic they will outgrow if you don't have to.

Lots of good stuff out there, but it seems like very little of it is in parenting books!

Robyn--I'm actually borrowing the distinction from another commenter whom Arwen references in the post. From my point of view this difference is a subtle one of intention. In the first case one is punishing out of anger in the second one is using the time out as a reasonable response to a behavior that must not be allowed for the child's own benefit.

The idea that I'm positing--that there IS a difference--is predicated on the notion that a child knows the difference and I believe that they do. From a remarkably young age they can tell when something is done in anger and for selfish reasons or when something is done rationally and lovingly.

This is what Arwen's dad is talking about (I think) when he talks about the details of discipline (to time out or not time out to spank or not to spank) existing on the wrong "axis" of the parenting discussion--its more about the intention behind the disciplinary action and not the disciplinary approach.

I have not had the honor of meeting you or your family personally, but from everything I've read on your blog and your mom's, you sound like a wonderful, warm, loving family. Although I had a wonderful family of my own, I still learn so much about how to be a good mom from you and from yours.

Close. The question of motive is part of it, but not the core. The core issue is more subtle.

One thing that has amazed me since before we began our family has been how much fear modern parents live under. It's almost assumed that parenting means living in this constant atmosphere of fear: fear that something's going to happen to their child, fear that they'll do something to damage their child, fear that they'll somehow "fail" parenting. I don't know if this finds its source psychological theories, or modern social attitudes, or what, but it's a terrible thing, and I think part of the reason why people dread even the thought of parenting.

I'm sure this tendency has many roots, but I think I know some of them. Part of it has to do with our cultural mistrust of the person. Some centuries ago, an attitude began to rise that said that people were not as trustworthy as systems. A person could fail you, but a properly implemented procedure (or process, or system, or protocol) would not. This attitude showed up particularly in workplaces and governments, but it eventually crept into the home.

There it took the form of doubt - doubt cast on the parent's ability to parent. "You untrained, inexperienced neophyte! What makes you think you can do something as vital as parenting? What if you FAIL?!?!? Better not leave something this important to mere chance!" So parents were encouraged not to trust themselves, but to trust "the system", where "the system" was some protocol or process defined by some expert(s) in accord with some set of principles. Raising children would no longer be a chancy, suspect operation that depended on some frail, inexperienced human for success. Now all the parents had to do was follow the procedure, and the outcome would be guaranteed! After all, this principle worked for manufacturing flashlights - why shouldn't it work for raising children?

This outlook had two devestating effects. One is that it put something betweeen the parents and the children. Parents were no longer loving beings in their children's lives - now they were operators of the system which was being trusted to produce the proper outcome. Children were not treasured as individual beings, but as objects being manipulated by the process toward an end.

The other devestating effect was that this just moved the parent's fears to a different place Hoodwinked into not trusting their own innate parenting instincts and trading it in for a process mentality, they now faced a different fear: what if they're doing the process wrong? Or (worse yet) - what if they chose the wrong process? This book said to follow this process and the outcome would be guaranteed, but we're not seeing the desired outcome, and now this other book says the first book was all wrong, and that means we've been doing it all wrong. Hence the parents live in a nearly constant state of fear, certain that their own instincts are untrustworthy but not knowing if the system(s) they're using to substitute for them are adequate, or being properly implemented.

This is why I never cracked a "parenting book" during the entire raising of our large family. Seriously - not one. I'd see articles in magazines, and I'd scoff at them. I knew there was something inadequate about them, and though I might not have been able to articulate it quite this well, that was it. I was rejecting the modern parenting paradigm at the root. Humans cannot be raised by processes, they can only be raised by loving people. God ordained parents primarily for this, but also aunts, uncles, family friends, and all manner of others to simply love children into adulthood.

That is the primary meaning of what I meant when I spoke of the discussion being on the wrong axis. To debate on parenting process vs. another is to yeild the debate to falsehood. We need to reclaim parenting for the lovers: the parents and other adults who love these precious children. We need to stop worrying about whether we're "doing parenting right" because parenting isn't something that's "done" - at least in the modern sense.

Awesome PotW--thanks for clarifying so eloquently.

I just quoted your dad on discipline vs punishment (thank you, Prince of the West) to my husband!

Although I grew up with practically no religion (my parents were Unitarians--and atheists) and by a single mom until I was 12, my family practiced many of the same principles with regard to trust and relationship building. Funny that a Catholic family with 8 (8?) children in Michigan could have so much in common with a Unitarian single parent of 1 down in Texas!

I just quoted your dad on discipline vs punishment (thank you, Prince of the West) to my husband!

Although I grew up with practically no religion (my parents were Unitarians--and atheists) and by a single mom until I was 12, my family practiced many of the same principles with regard to trust and relationship building. Funny that a Catholic family with 8 (8?) children in Michigan could have so much in common with a Unitarian single parent of 1 down in Texas!

Arwen, you are blog land's Anna Quindlen. Truly. I love your writing and I wish I could invite you over for coffee :) Unfortunately, that's a bit far. Maybe when I was living in Ann Arbor... but Vancouver, BC is a bit of a trek for a cup of joe with a stranger.

Nonetheless...

Cheers, my dear. I hope you keep writing for a very long time.

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